I can really relate to this essay. Again, so on point!!! I had a friend of 40 years, who ghosted me shortly after my husband died. She told other friends she called me twice & left a message & I didn’t call her back. 1 - she didn’t leave a message & 2 - I was grieving & could barely put one foot in front of the other. So you just quit??? Forty years of always being there for her & of her being the recipient of caring acts from my husband as well. She just dropped me & never looked back. I’ve lost other close friends over the years for similar reasons. Some hurt more than others but I refused to hang on to a flawed & inauthentic relationship. It’s a journey!
What's so intriguing about this is the lack of understanding from the other side. I just had a difficult, heartfelt conversation with the husband of a one time bestie for 40+ years, he happens to also be my accountant and a most beloved friend. His wife started engaging in all kinds of deeply painful behaviors that I honestly didn't know how to interpret other than she was done hanging out with me. Nine months after I quit calling (to which she always said, like clockwork, honeyicanttalkrightnowbye) she called and angrily wanted to know what had happened to me. It took nine months to notice. I no longer existed for her. I told him the story, and said that I didn't possess the wherewithal to tell her what had gone wrong, for she had an even stronger personality than I do. It was painful enough and I wasn't up for being gaslit. So I let that go. Apparently that caused some real pain on her end, but she had been oblivious for several years to the pain she was causing me. To your point. We are all of us guilty of wounding each other. I've gotten much better at speaking up. Today I might call this stuff out. Back in 2015 or so I just didn't have it in me. It takes what it takes for us to grow, including bigger you know whats, to speak up for ourselves. Could I have done better? Maybe. Maybe not. That said her support of Trump (which horrified me at the time) was enough for me to pull away. I doubt she does now, but back then, many of us already knew what he was. These things happen, we learn, hopefully we grow. Not without pain.
I had an inherited family friend who said two very hurtful things to me. One - “Did it bother you that I looked prettier than you at your wedding?” Two - “I can’t get over feeling superior to you.” In her lack of tact, empathy, humility. and kindness, it caused me for the first time to feel that someone else was inferior to me in any way. 😢😘 She’s one of the few people I’ve ever dropped from my life.
Me: I'd like to speak at your female veterans' retreat (I'm a vet, she isn't)
My long term friend: You're too old to be relevant to them. (Not true in the slightest, I've done speeches for veterans of all ages for years)
Me, in great pain: He broke up with me.
My long term friend: Told you so.
Those are just the ones I can recall. Karen, honestly, what kind of ugly undercurrent of angry sewage causes people to say such things? Your "friend" was never a friend- and her incredible need to suck the life out of others speaks to a gaping black hole in her soul.
I think my friend was dealing with some harsh realities about getting older just as my life was taking off, I was writing successfully, her life was slowing down and she'd stopped taking care of her body right as I was getting in the best shape of my life. None of that is my doing. It was hers. There had been so much warmth and love and affection up to that point, or so I'd thought. I am not privy to what had changed in her world. Only to her behaviors. I dropped her, too. I am not willing, nor should any of us be willing, to be on the receiving end of snark. In fact, it was that word, snark, which had set her off. She honestly didn't believe herself capable of being snarky. Sure was. Relationships are hard work and I have made my share of awful mistakes. I've also learned from them as best I can, and where I have needed to I've made amends. If I had any inkling there had been remorse, we might still be friends. But there wasn't; there was just anger . That's not any kind of connection I care to continue, nor should any of us. We are both better off.
Wow… I’ve heard that some people lack an “empathy chip”?! Your friend and mine both sound like there’s something very sadly off in their ability to use tact and to refrain from cruelty!?!! You would think that life experience with people would have trained it into them though!
: I have made the mistake, and for my part this is a mistake, of being upset, hurt, angry, all of it at people who were so inwardly- focused that they had absolutely no clue of the damage they were doing.
While yes, friendships go through rough patches, perhaps the roughest patch, and I have failed miserably at it, is to call out bad behavior when it happens, rather than hope against hope that it will stop or that somehow that person will figure it out.
They won’t. In this, then, is our growth. We choose to risk the connection by calling it out (which I did in my article and the friendship imploded, not on my end but theirs, which was instructive).
Or we risk ruining the connection anyway by being regularly damaged by the behavior. Either way growth is demanded of us.
Friendships invite us to risk and expand. Sometimes when we do we lose the friend. That said, they did their job for us. Now it’s time for us to find a new friend or three or five who invite us to grow even more.
That's what stunned me, too, Karen, for this was a person who appeared to have so much heart for people, animals...and. All I could figure in her case was that there was terrible self-directed anger of some kind, and I was a handy vessel for it. That said, while I have space in my life to understand that, I do NOT have space in my life to tolerate being on the receiving end. We all have bad days, but this was a series of comments that got steadily worse. At some point, the light ahead is a train, and GET OFF THE TRACKS.
I found the remark about your alcoholic dad troubling. Why? Because a dear friend from childhood - Denise - and I had a "falling out" some years before she passed - maybe 8 years ago- over really stupid shit (I said something she didn't like - and I don't think it was clumsy, but maybe I'm wrong about that).
Denise's mother cut her out of the will because Denise dared to say something to her mom that her mom didn't like. A classic, "power dynamic" using money to control others...and that really is not maternal love. It's a "control thing." Saying, without saying, that you dear (adult) child are still subordinate to me. Maybe Denise was still hurting from losing some of the family fortune (middle class status - only 3 kids total - so we aren't talking millions of $) when I said something Denise didn't like. She ghosted me. I was hurt; I guess she was too.
I learned of Denise's death through one of her two sons on FB. The son told me that Denise would have liked to see me before she had passed on from cancer. Well, she never reached out. Neither did this older of the two sons. I've lived in the same house for 31+ years and have had the same mobile phone number since 1998...no excuses for not being able to contact me.
I've learned that some people just do not have the "container" to receive feedback about how they are perceived by others or how they've hurt others, because of the severity of their own brokenness. Some ppl are very good at masking their true selves. They've invested so much energy into the social mask, over identifying with it, that they've become the mask, hiding the inner soul from themselves.
this is going to take a separate response, Linda, and yes I did follow, it's spot on and a perfect description of my father. I so appreciate this. When parents are so damaged, they simply teach their kids all the wrong coping skills. For my father, it was all about control, which speaks volumes about how out of control he felt in his own life. I'd like to quote you; your call. If I may, say how and if I can attribute.
Your father probably felt out of control because of the ETOH…ppl who cannot control themselves for whatever reason(s), attempt feebly to control others (especially kin folk).
In the case of Denise, ETOH wasn’t the source of her brokenness or her mother’s. I always thought that Mrs Y was a fairly together woman; she was a practicing Buddhist, as I was led to believe. But there were glimpses over time that Mrs. Y had trust issues. Which I was able to see as an adult, but failed to see as a child.
Thanks Julia for displaying my words so prominently. I am always amazed when others find my thoughts relevant and interesting.
On that note, allow me a quick segue to commenting on Louisa Wah’s question about “calling people out.” I have found it is important to remember that there is no static thing or a noun called relationship. It is a dynamic of sharing private insights with another. One person’s experience in relating is naturally different than the other’s in the same relationship dynamic. We each choose to engage in relationship for personal reasons and expectations.
Humans are “story-telling creatures.” There is a psychological term called “fantasy bond.” We tend to choose to partner with those who “fit” our personal fantasies reflecting subconscious callings. A lot of our frustrations in relationships is that others do not precisely conform to the fantasies we expect of them. How dare they?!
We can’t call out others, but can call out ourselves on the stories and fantasies we project onto others. Boundary setting, as I,previously mentioned, is an inside job. One has to break the outward fantasy bond and go deeply within to discover the feelings generating the fantasy. From that place of personal integrity you can share your personal feelings of how you are experiencing relating with another. One cannot work on preserving a “relationship”, but we are responsible for being as authentic as possible on our side of relating with others. Relationships have sacred purpose, but only if you are conscious of your true desires for intimacy with others in the present moment. Pass the popcorn and let the show begin…
I haven't had a chance to read your last article. These comments intrigued me. I look forward to reading it. Meanwhile, do you have any tips about how to call people out?
Oh Lord, Louisa, I wish I were better at it myself. I'm hardly in a position to offer tips! Let me give that some thoughts and if I have anything worth saying I promise to respond. Great challenge!
I just found your Substack and haven’t even read anything yet, but I feel like I’m a fan :-)
That's extremely kind of you! Hope I can live up to expectations for you.
I can really relate to this essay. Again, so on point!!! I had a friend of 40 years, who ghosted me shortly after my husband died. She told other friends she called me twice & left a message & I didn’t call her back. 1 - she didn’t leave a message & 2 - I was grieving & could barely put one foot in front of the other. So you just quit??? Forty years of always being there for her & of her being the recipient of caring acts from my husband as well. She just dropped me & never looked back. I’ve lost other close friends over the years for similar reasons. Some hurt more than others but I refused to hang on to a flawed & inauthentic relationship. It’s a journey!
What's so intriguing about this is the lack of understanding from the other side. I just had a difficult, heartfelt conversation with the husband of a one time bestie for 40+ years, he happens to also be my accountant and a most beloved friend. His wife started engaging in all kinds of deeply painful behaviors that I honestly didn't know how to interpret other than she was done hanging out with me. Nine months after I quit calling (to which she always said, like clockwork, honeyicanttalkrightnowbye) she called and angrily wanted to know what had happened to me. It took nine months to notice. I no longer existed for her. I told him the story, and said that I didn't possess the wherewithal to tell her what had gone wrong, for she had an even stronger personality than I do. It was painful enough and I wasn't up for being gaslit. So I let that go. Apparently that caused some real pain on her end, but she had been oblivious for several years to the pain she was causing me. To your point. We are all of us guilty of wounding each other. I've gotten much better at speaking up. Today I might call this stuff out. Back in 2015 or so I just didn't have it in me. It takes what it takes for us to grow, including bigger you know whats, to speak up for ourselves. Could I have done better? Maybe. Maybe not. That said her support of Trump (which horrified me at the time) was enough for me to pull away. I doubt she does now, but back then, many of us already knew what he was. These things happen, we learn, hopefully we grow. Not without pain.
I had an inherited family friend who said two very hurtful things to me. One - “Did it bother you that I looked prettier than you at your wedding?” Two - “I can’t get over feeling superior to you.” In her lack of tact, empathy, humility. and kindness, it caused me for the first time to feel that someone else was inferior to me in any way. 😢😘 She’s one of the few people I’ve ever dropped from my life.
Me: I'm thinking of writing a memo.
My long term friend: Who would want to read it?
Me: I'd like to speak at your female veterans' retreat (I'm a vet, she isn't)
My long term friend: You're too old to be relevant to them. (Not true in the slightest, I've done speeches for veterans of all ages for years)
Me, in great pain: He broke up with me.
My long term friend: Told you so.
Those are just the ones I can recall. Karen, honestly, what kind of ugly undercurrent of angry sewage causes people to say such things? Your "friend" was never a friend- and her incredible need to suck the life out of others speaks to a gaping black hole in her soul.
I think my friend was dealing with some harsh realities about getting older just as my life was taking off, I was writing successfully, her life was slowing down and she'd stopped taking care of her body right as I was getting in the best shape of my life. None of that is my doing. It was hers. There had been so much warmth and love and affection up to that point, or so I'd thought. I am not privy to what had changed in her world. Only to her behaviors. I dropped her, too. I am not willing, nor should any of us be willing, to be on the receiving end of snark. In fact, it was that word, snark, which had set her off. She honestly didn't believe herself capable of being snarky. Sure was. Relationships are hard work and I have made my share of awful mistakes. I've also learned from them as best I can, and where I have needed to I've made amends. If I had any inkling there had been remorse, we might still be friends. But there wasn't; there was just anger . That's not any kind of connection I care to continue, nor should any of us. We are both better off.
Wow… I’ve heard that some people lack an “empathy chip”?! Your friend and mine both sound like there’s something very sadly off in their ability to use tact and to refrain from cruelty!?!! You would think that life experience with people would have trained it into them though!
And I reread and love your words here too, Julia!
: I have made the mistake, and for my part this is a mistake, of being upset, hurt, angry, all of it at people who were so inwardly- focused that they had absolutely no clue of the damage they were doing.
While yes, friendships go through rough patches, perhaps the roughest patch, and I have failed miserably at it, is to call out bad behavior when it happens, rather than hope against hope that it will stop or that somehow that person will figure it out.
They won’t. In this, then, is our growth. We choose to risk the connection by calling it out (which I did in my article and the friendship imploded, not on my end but theirs, which was instructive).
Or we risk ruining the connection anyway by being regularly damaged by the behavior. Either way growth is demanded of us.
Friendships invite us to risk and expand. Sometimes when we do we lose the friend. That said, they did their job for us. Now it’s time for us to find a new friend or three or five who invite us to grow even more.
That's what stunned me, too, Karen, for this was a person who appeared to have so much heart for people, animals...and. All I could figure in her case was that there was terrible self-directed anger of some kind, and I was a handy vessel for it. That said, while I have space in my life to understand that, I do NOT have space in my life to tolerate being on the receiving end. We all have bad days, but this was a series of comments that got steadily worse. At some point, the light ahead is a train, and GET OFF THE TRACKS.
You’re welcome to steal. 😘
I found the remark about your alcoholic dad troubling. Why? Because a dear friend from childhood - Denise - and I had a "falling out" some years before she passed - maybe 8 years ago- over really stupid shit (I said something she didn't like - and I don't think it was clumsy, but maybe I'm wrong about that).
Denise's mother cut her out of the will because Denise dared to say something to her mom that her mom didn't like. A classic, "power dynamic" using money to control others...and that really is not maternal love. It's a "control thing." Saying, without saying, that you dear (adult) child are still subordinate to me. Maybe Denise was still hurting from losing some of the family fortune (middle class status - only 3 kids total - so we aren't talking millions of $) when I said something Denise didn't like. She ghosted me. I was hurt; I guess she was too.
I learned of Denise's death through one of her two sons on FB. The son told me that Denise would have liked to see me before she had passed on from cancer. Well, she never reached out. Neither did this older of the two sons. I've lived in the same house for 31+ years and have had the same mobile phone number since 1998...no excuses for not being able to contact me.
I've learned that some people just do not have the "container" to receive feedback about how they are perceived by others or how they've hurt others, because of the severity of their own brokenness. Some ppl are very good at masking their true selves. They've invested so much energy into the social mask, over identifying with it, that they've become the mask, hiding the inner soul from themselves.
Hope this makes sense!
this is going to take a separate response, Linda, and yes I did follow, it's spot on and a perfect description of my father. I so appreciate this. When parents are so damaged, they simply teach their kids all the wrong coping skills. For my father, it was all about control, which speaks volumes about how out of control he felt in his own life. I'd like to quote you; your call. If I may, say how and if I can attribute.
Yes, you may quote me!
Your father probably felt out of control because of the ETOH…ppl who cannot control themselves for whatever reason(s), attempt feebly to control others (especially kin folk).
In the case of Denise, ETOH wasn’t the source of her brokenness or her mother’s. I always thought that Mrs Y was a fairly together woman; she was a practicing Buddhist, as I was led to believe. But there were glimpses over time that Mrs. Y had trust issues. Which I was able to see as an adult, but failed to see as a child.
Thanks Julia for displaying my words so prominently. I am always amazed when others find my thoughts relevant and interesting.
On that note, allow me a quick segue to commenting on Louisa Wah’s question about “calling people out.” I have found it is important to remember that there is no static thing or a noun called relationship. It is a dynamic of sharing private insights with another. One person’s experience in relating is naturally different than the other’s in the same relationship dynamic. We each choose to engage in relationship for personal reasons and expectations.
Humans are “story-telling creatures.” There is a psychological term called “fantasy bond.” We tend to choose to partner with those who “fit” our personal fantasies reflecting subconscious callings. A lot of our frustrations in relationships is that others do not precisely conform to the fantasies we expect of them. How dare they?!
We can’t call out others, but can call out ourselves on the stories and fantasies we project onto others. Boundary setting, as I,previously mentioned, is an inside job. One has to break the outward fantasy bond and go deeply within to discover the feelings generating the fantasy. From that place of personal integrity you can share your personal feelings of how you are experiencing relating with another. One cannot work on preserving a “relationship”, but we are responsible for being as authentic as possible on our side of relating with others. Relationships have sacred purpose, but only if you are conscious of your true desires for intimacy with others in the present moment. Pass the popcorn and let the show begin…
Stealing for Louisa!
I haven't had a chance to read your last article. These comments intrigued me. I look forward to reading it. Meanwhile, do you have any tips about how to call people out?
Oh Lord, Louisa, I wish I were better at it myself. I'm hardly in a position to offer tips! Let me give that some thoughts and if I have anything worth saying I promise to respond. Great challenge!
Yes, if you can think of any good tips please do share! I need to hear them! Thanks for taking on the challenge!
I really enjoyed this and appreciate your taking my work seriously. I wish we lived closer, I think we would be fast friends.
Very kind of you, Chaos. I did get your other comment, I have a commitment this morning and will revisit it later.